Tuesday, February 19, 2008

Another Long Night With Gruul

Monday night, Mal Katai put together a raid to go to Gruul’s Lair.

Despite our success on Friday with Tidewalker, we really struggled in Gruul’s. This should have been a quick farming run, but once again, we had new people, and alts.

The raid had zero Rogues in it, so we struggled stopping Blindeye from healing. We actually wiped on the first try, but we got him on the second.

Then we went to Gruul. Our Warrior Tank was Lanorah. Within a few moments of the start of the fight, I could tell there was a problem. Lan just wasn’t putting out much threat. He was around 400 TPS the entire time. I really had to hold back to keep from passing him. This held back our melee dps as well as they had to stay below me and I had to stay below Lan.

We had people dying to Shatters. After two attempts, Lan left the raid and Devona joined. Devona was able to put out much better threat. Despite my best efforts, I couldn’t get over 80% of his threat and was constantly chugging mana pots. That opened it up for our melee to go to town.

What was happening was that Dev or I would get a couple of people around us during a Shatter. We’d be low and then Grull would come after us and kill either myself or Dev before the healers could catch up.

Each time we’ve had a wipefest on Gruul it’s been stated by the officers that we wouldn’t be bringing alts and new people, yet here we were again.

It took about 6 attempts; we actually managed to get him down. He finally drops the tanking shield. I had just spent all my MKP on Friday picking up the Ring of Sundered Souls off of Tidewalker. I was thrilled to get the Ring.

Devona had 5 MKP, because we award MKP to the player and not the toon. The only shot I had at it, was if Devona chose to pass. For raids, Devona normally plays his Holy Paladin, Cellestia.

He chose not to pass, as was his right under our loot system, and he received the Shield.

I was bitterly disappointed. None of the officers asked him to pass, and it wasn’t until AFTER the loot had been distributed that one of them mentioned that it would have been better for the Shield to have gone to me.

When I look at loot, I try to take a raid wide view. I’ve passed on T4 Legs and Chest every time they’ve dropped because they would be situational pieces for me, but a main piece for someone else. Devona/Cellestia didn’t do that. He chose his own personal desires over the greater good of the Raid and the Guild, and he hurt the raid on a couple of different levels.

One, I don’t have the shield to tank SSC, and two, he spent all his MKP so he doesn’t have any to try to upgrade his Paladin.

I know I shouldn’t get so upset and cause loot drama. We’ve been killing Gruul for months and this was the first time it ever dropped.

I think the reason we struggle so much with Gruul’s is that people don’t want to do it anymore. If it wasn’t for the Shield, I’m not sure I would want to do it anymore.

There is a possible side grade to Gruul’s shield dropped by the DragonHawk boss in ZA. I know Brindall is after that Shield as well.

Should the officers have overridden our loot system to give a major upgrade to one of their SSC tanks? That would have caused as much, if not more drama.

Should our loot system be changed so that MKP goes to the toon and not the player? Should we put a “Mains over alts” rule in? I can certainly suggest that, but it may be viewed simply as “sour grapes” on my part.

I can’t deny that I’m upset, but I’m not sure what, if anything, I should really do about it.

I really enjoy raiding. It’s my favorite part of the game. The way loot works sometimes can be really frustrating. I guess I could have farmed my butt off this weekend to try to get back to 5 before the raid on Monday, but I really wasn’t thinking about it. I didn’t know we were going to do Gruul, or that the shield would drop. Getting 5 MKP would take giving the equivalent of 1000g to the Guild bank. I don’t have a gathering skill, so it would take some time to get that much gold up.
I might get another shot at the Shield again or I might not.
Ultimately, what really matters to me is finishing SSC and TK and getting to Mount Hyjal and Black Temple. I want to see all these cool fights before Wrath of the Lich King comes out and none does them.


Raist said...

He was asked to pass by our GM
it was not a nice thing he did there...he said he wanted to come for t4 legs and instead used his mkp on the shield..Sorry Ted

Anonymous said...

The thing you've got to keep in mind is that Tommy probably doesn't ever *choose* to come on Cellestia but comes on whomever the raid needs at the time. Plus, he's the maintank for group 2's 10 man stuff, so its not as if he wont be using the shield.

Anonymous said...

I prefer a MKP to the toon and not the person. It has its disadvantages, but it avoids the situation you mentioned, which is a heartbreaking one. I agree that now he is at a disadvantage upgrading his main. Keeping separate MKP for alts discourages their use in raids. Bringing an alt to a raid, can make the raid, as well as break the raid.

Just a parting thought. Keep your head up, the shield could drop next week for ya. It will always drop again.

Honors Code said...

I'm glad to hear that the officer's asked him to pass in whispers.

If ALD doesn't drop again, there's always the ZA shield. If I get really unlucky, I can farm some Arena points for 2.4 and get the Season 3 Shield.

One shield isn't going to be the difference between wiping or downing a boss.

Anonymous said...

Wow. That is a terrible loot system imho. Mainly in that Mains > Alts, but also in that you can spend DKP earned on your main on loot for your alt.

You need 25 highly-geared people to take on progression content. When someone spreads their "share" of loot (via DKP) over two toons, you've just diluted the gear of your 25-man raid group. If someone has one well-geared toon and then starts getting drops on a second toon, you are no closer to progressing than you were before (unless the second toon has been given priority in order to fill a needed role). You're in fact farther away, because he took a drop from someone who could use it.

That said, the second commenter makes it sound like the guy in question doesn't prefer to raid on his healer, so maybe there's a question about which his main is.

Imho, in a raiding guild, everyone needs to have a clear main and mains > alts, because that's what helps the raid progress.

I feel your pain, though; I too am in a casual guild that raids, and we don't even use DKP. Anyone who shows up to a raid for the first time can (and does) win loot against someone who has been a mainstay for months.* Blargh.


*but even we have a mains > alts rule. 0.o

Raydz said...

well grats on at least seeing the shield, i still havnt seen the damn thing ever drop.

I think Tommy wants to play his warrior much much more than his pally or priest, he only plays the pally to fill in the need for healers.

He probably just wants to see the gear go to a toon that he enjoys playing more.

I know your frustration though, that thing never freaking drops.

The Distracting Shot said...

I am really curious on how your dkp system works. maybe a new post is in order? :)

The Distracting Shot said...

and another note, I have a 70 hunt and a 70 pally. I was with a guild that at first kept my points seperatley and i agreed at first. But when they started asking me to switch from one toon to the other and drops where coming and i didnt have enough dkp on that toon i was s.o.l. So they aggreed to combine the dkp. and i was a much happier raider. Not even going to get into the fact that i needed no badges on my hunt but needed them severley on my pally.

Anonymous said...

If progression is the goal, a guild is much better recruiting an additional healer or hunter or whatever is needed than it is using the alt of an established member, because while you can't always know who will show up to raid on any given night, you can know for absolute certainty that someone's main and alt will certainly not be raiding together.

If both toons get X drops, then X drops are wasted loot to your guild 100% of the time; 2X when that person isn't raiding.

I know that having alts fill spots is helpful sometimes, but when it comes to loot, mains need to take precendence over alts. It's just math.


Vaerlin said...

It depends on the goals of your guild.

Alts are helpful and useful... for some farmed content... and for a casual guild that doesn't plan on getting past TK before the next X-pac they should just roll on everything. But for progressing through 25-man content efficiently, a progression oriented guild cannot afford to gear up 2 toons on each character.

Granted, loot is rarely what holds a guild back, but that's water under the bridge.

It doesn't matter if an alt will or won't use a drop. If it helps your guild more easily progress through your serious content, AND your guild's goal is progression, then *always* pass to the one who needs.

In my opinion, either free roll everything (ie: loot doesn't really matter) or loot council everything (loot matters and progression is the goal). If I'm playing, I'm playing to see more content... not to collect OMG purples. :)

In my old guild, on my hunter... I passed countless purples to people because my blues were better than theirs. It helped the guild gear up faster and progress very well (I seriously had quite a few blues in BWL and was still pwning the damage meters... heck, I still had a few blues when we started Naxx due to bad luck). But when alts started showing up and 'needing' the drops that I had passed to the more needy... well... it undermined our whole 'on your honor system' that got us so far so fast... Lack of attendance on 'farmed' content and breakdown in the loot-trust issue eventually stalled us on Twin Emps/Naxx.

Putting together groups for farmed content is always tough, but if people are doing it for drops they need to help the guild progress, then those bosses should award DKP/MKP/whatever, while mains get first pick... (my opinion)

Every guild and every person has to act how they feel they should. You didn't cause drama, be happy with that decision. In the end, the holy pally will pay for his decision in repair bills later. ;)

Bandarno said...

Tommy tanks for group 2's weekly kara run (thus helping us get badges/loot), which helps gear some of our people for 25 mans. Unlike group 1, we usually have 3 or 4 different people each week for our last spots as well.

Plus, eventually we'll start doing ZA more seriously and the better geared our main tank, the better off our entire group is. Just because he doesnt tank in 25 mans all the time doesnt mean he isnt contributing to guild progression with that toon.

Tego said...

alright one thing i see here. even if he does thank for a kara run.... what do you need the gruuls shield for in kara?