Wednesday, June 10, 2009

Honorshammer's Challenge! (Ret PVP Nerf)

“I don’t watch the News anymore; I think it makes me a happier person” – Honorshammer

“Ret Nerfed again!”
“Ret PVP is dead!”
“Okay, which one of you pwned some poor GM so he had us nerfed?”
“Reroll DK if you want to Arena as DPS, reroll Druid or Priest if you want to heal, or just roll Rogue/Mage/Priest and faceroll your way to Gladiator.”
“Do you really need any more proof after this, anyone can see it cleary, Blizzard hates Paladins!”

These are just some of the comments that have filled the forums since the announcement of the nerf to Vindication. For those not aware, here’s the official word from the Developers:

“We are in the process of completing a hotfix that could go live as early as this afternoon that will make the Paladin talent Vindication no longer reduce Intelligence or Stamina from the target it is applied to. The talent will continue to reduce Agility, Spirit, and Strength as it currently does. We felt this change will help balance the ability out, especially in the lower arena brackets where they are very prominent, while not being a negative impact on a Retribution Paladin’s PvE dps.Once this hotfix is live, the tooltip will be incorrect until we can update it in the next content patch.”

Nobody likes to get nerfed, and I will be the first to admit the reasoning does look a little shaky on the surface. Balancing around the ‘lower brackets’ seems akin to balancing around a 5 man normal dungeon, instead of Raids.

I’ll even further agree that Ret seems to have some very knee jerk nerfs directed at it and that it does feel a little bit “picked on”at times.

I think too many times, we read forums about what our class can’t do, or how bad off our class has it compared to other classes. It leads us to looking at those other classes with envious eyes and wondering why the Developers ‘hate us’ so. The problem comes when you let the negativity of the forums spill over into the game and affect the entertainment value, let’s call it fun, that you get from the game.

I know I’m guilty of this. It’s probably why I’ve got an entire stable full of alts. You start thinking “Gah, (insert class name) stinks, I’m changing to (insert new class name).”

You go to the forums to get or give advice or just to discuss your class with others who are knowledgeable about the class and share the same passion for the play style that you do. What you find far too often, not only on the General WoW forums, but on specialty sites like Maintankadin, PlusHeal and Tankspot, is many people complaining about what their class can’t do. While it’s important to understand the limitations of any class, the main reason for understanding your weaknesses is so you can work around them and minimize them.

I rolled my Paladin in 1.9 after one of the biggest nerfs to Paladins in the history of the game at that point. But I didn’t know about it. I wasn’t reading the forums. I didn’t know Paladins had been nerfed “INTO THE GROUND” as the saying goes. All I knew at the time was that I was having fun leveling my Paladin.

I talked with fellow Blogger Veneretio and I loved what he said, “I always write about what we can do, not what we can't. The tank topics that Tankspot released a while back do reveal issues with Warriors though. Some have been fixed. Some haven't. You'll never hear me write it even if there is a problem.”

That’s pretty much the same approach I’ve taken.

If you read the forums right now, you’ll hear how ‘once again’ Paladins are falling behind as a Tank choice. I took it seriously enough to get my Warrior up to 80 (though he’s not quite there yet). I wanted to have a backup plan.

Then I talked to my Raid Leader and he put in perspective : “I guess the only thing I can say is that if you are not having FUN on the pally ( not worried about effectiveness as I care more about the player not the class).”

So I thought about it last night as I tanked in Ulduar. I thought about it again as I was doing 3s with my Arena team.

I had blast tanking Ulduar. My 3s team is very fun.

Sure, I wish I had a shorter cool down interrupt off the global cool down.
Sure, I wish I had a distance closer.
Sure, I wish I had another tanking cool down.
Sure, I wish the Developers would get Ret to the point in PVP where all it needed was small tweaks every now and again, not major rewrites every other patch.
Sure, I wish itemization was a little better.
Sure, I wish the T8 Legs had a different graphic.

And I bet every class has a laundry ‘Wish List’ of buffs they’d like as well.

Am I worried the changes to Block will upset the Tanking balance. You’re darn tootin’ right I am. Am I worried the Developers will give Warriors their 4pc set bonus as a talent, but not give something similar to the Paladin. Absolutely, and that would stink.

Do I worry that Paladins will have a harder time tanking bosses or have a harder time having success in Arena? Yep.

But this ole boy was tanking Bosses when ‘everybody knew’ Paladins couldn’t do it. I tanked ole Magtheridon into ground without a Shield Wall. I did the pull on Hydross without Charge. I walked the line of keeping 2nd threat on Gruul. I did it all at a time, when ‘Paladins couldn’t do it’.

I believe that if it got to the point where I felt like it was holding back our Raid group for me to be a Paladin tank, then I would have to reevaluate it, but we aren't anywhere remote close to that. We aren't even in that Area Code.

So here’s my challenge to you if you are getting disgruntled with your class, regardless of what class you play. Stop reading forums for a week and just play. You aren’t going to miss any earth shattering news that you won’t be able to catch-up on within 10 minutes on MMO-Champion once the week is over.

As you play, ask yourself if you are having fun. If you are having fun, then stick with the class you enjoy playing, and choose to ignore the stuff on the forums. If you aren’t having fun, then yes, maybe it’s time for a new class, or possibly even a new game.


Doogiehowser said...

I can't agree with more Honors. An absolutely fantastic post and great advice for everyone.

Remember to smile people, it's a game!

Anonymous said...

i agree with most of what you say Honor, other than when the nerfing really does hurt the pve side of us. I know we say every class prob has stuff they don't like, but i don't think anyone can argue that pally's seem to always get the knee jerk nerf for pvp, and kills us on the pve side.

I didnt mind tanking in BC when they said pally's couldnt tank something, i liked to prove them wrong, i felt you just had to have good skill to tank with a pally because it wasnt auto tanking. but it just seems like they keep putting more and more road blocks in where soon even with great skill, we won't be able to surpass what they have done to us nerf wise.

i enjoy the game and try to not always let the nerf's anger me to the point i hate playing, but i dont like any other class than pally's and tanking so an alt isnt something that i would like. but it almost seems that soon the pally tank just wont be able to cut it and not stand toe to toe with Arthas as i have always wished. it's a shame blizzard hits us more often than the others, sometimes they just need to leave well enough alone and quit worrying about the whiners of the pvp circuit.

Honors Code said...

"but it almost seems that soon the pally tank just wont be able to cut it and not stand toe to toe with Arthas as i have always wished."

I have no idea how you are drawing this conclusion. The reality is a Paladin can tank any boss currently in game. Plus, we've been told the Developers are working on giving Paladins a second cooldown.

There is nothing in the current reality that supports your statement.

Russell Abbott said...

Amen to that. The forums will suck your soul out through your eyeballs. Honestly, I trust Blizzard to follow through with their BTPNTC ethos--at least well enough that I will be able to tank pretty much anything in the game. Is it a bit unfair that DKs are the best hardmode tanks? Perhaps, but paladins are probably still the best add tanks--a a thankless and hard job that often gets overlooked.

I always remember, "Judging the healthiness of the WoW population by the contents of the forums is like judging the healthiness of a country by the contents of its insane asylums." Not sure who said it, or I would link.

Anonymous said...

when i said about pally tanks being able to stand toe to toe more of an over exaggeration of the way they like to nerf us. as in it seems like whenever we are in a very good place, they like to push us back. of course we are able to still tank anything thus far, it seems soon we will have to go back and start fighting the old stereotypes of old and this time we will really be in the back as far as abilities.

I know some guilds still stick to the better player than the class, but if tank A can make it a lot easier than tank B because of class ability, then progression is going to be given to tank A. It seems that the individual of the skill might not make up for the shortcomings being handed to pallys is what im getting at.

Anonymous said...

I can think of two similar analogies to this that I've always held strong to. One was taught to me by a used car salesman (of all people!) & the other I figured out myself.

1) Your car payment won't matter if you really love your car.

Whether you pay $150/mo or $500/mo for your car payment it doesn't matter. If "YOU" think it's worth whatever percentage of income you're spending & "YOU" are willing to make whatever sacrifices are necessary, then it's a good purchase that you'll enjoy. If everyday you go out to start your car you think, "ugh, this is a drain," then no amount of money will make it worth while. Buy what you'll enjoy the driving. It'll make that payment SO much easier to swallow.

2) Why are you complaining about gas prices? There's NO way around buying it, so just pay your "taxes" and go on your merry way.

This one's mine. I hear a lot of people complain about gas prices or power bills - especially here in Southern California. But why? Are you going to stop driving? Are you going to live in the dark? No. So stop worrying about it. As long as you're not being excessive, then you'll be fine! Just do what you do and pay the price that you're going to have to pay no matter what. After all, everyone else is paying the same prices, too.

How does this apply to the [insert your favorite class here]?

Easy! Just like Honors said. Play the class that you enjoy. Stop listening to the hype. I've said it before & I'll say it again…


If you enjoy playing a paladin, and you enjoy logging in every day and seeing that mighty holy champion, then play a paladin! Who cares if you are missing a cooldown? I can pull up any number of YouTube videos of people doing amazing things in both PvE & PvP (yes, even prot pvp) all without that cooldown.

Secondly, why are people complaining all the time? You know Blizzard listens, regardless of what people say. They may not agree all the time, but you don't get this popular by shunning all criticisms. Fixes come all the time. They're really trying to do a good job. So, stop worrying about it! Just go out and do your best every day & enjoy doing what you're doing.

I remember back before 3.0, I loved Prot Warrior PvP. Everyone told me how much of a newb I was. "Prot's not a PvP spec, noob." I used to get so frustrated because people wouldn't even give me a chance before they wrote me off. I'd often be found saying, "stop regurgitating forum dribble & make your own decisions." I may have even had it macroed at one point.

Did I get facerolled a lot? Yes. A LOT. "So, they're right!" No. I got facerolled because I'm trying something new & there are no real strategy guides and step-by-step instructions on how to do it. In the end, I remember going toe-to-toe with a Knight-Lieutenant Rogue (probably sometime around my first week of practice) in a duel. Guess who won? Me. People were pretty stunned. In the end, I like to think I changed a few peoples' minds on Prot PvP (pre 3.0).

By the way, in case you're saying (yeah, well that's just one case, try fighting a frost mage, noob). I will give you the best website ever…

He pioneered prot pvp (pre-3.0) & inspired me to take up the gauntlet. His videos are top notch, showing a S1/S2 warrior taking down rogues & locks in full S3 or T6 w/both warglaives!

My point to this rant? Do what you enjoy & forums be damned. All their complaining in the world should never affect how much you enjoy playing your favorite class.

TL,DR: I agree with Honors. :)

Dorgol said...

I have only one complaint about Paladins - over specialization.

As a Holy Paladin: I can heal. I have little to nothing of an offensive nature, and most of my "support" or "defensive" options are easily dispelled.

As a Protetion Paladin: I can tank. I can't heal for crap since my heals don't do much, and I'd go OOM anyway. I can provide minimal DPS, but compared to the other 3 tanking classes I suspect a Protection Paladin has the lowest DPS (Prot warriors might be lower, but see below).

Strangely enough, it's Retribution that has the most flexibility. I still can't heal for long, but thanks to JotW I can Flash of Light for awhile without going OOM. I still can't tank, though that isn't really a unique problem for non-spec'd tanks.

Now look at the other healers.

Resto Druids can nuke. Resto Shaman can nuke. Holy or Disc Priests can nuke. Their DPS will still be bad, but it will be considerably better than a Holy Paladin can do. And this is important in PvP where the goal is to CC someone while you burn down someone else - that Holy Priest may only do 3k damage, but that could be enough to finish someone else before the Blind breaks.
ALL of the other healing classes have offensive abilities they can use while in Healer spec and healer gear. We are limited to a very long CD stun and a single 6-sec CD "nuke" (which is also our only heal).

Comparing the tanking classes is just as imbalanced.
Death Knights are designed to DPS better.
Feral Druids can easily swap to Cat form.
Prot Warriors suffer from low DPS just as Prot Paladin do, but they make up for it in other areas (stuns, silences, dispels, mobility, spell reflect).

I'd say all of the hybrids are equal in the DPS department, with Retribution possibly standing out. Shadow Priests and Druids have to shift forms to actually heal. And NONE of the tank hybrids can tank for long when they aren't spec'd for it.

TL;DR - I'm don't want to be able to do the same thing as the other classes can do, but I'd like to have a few more options. OVERALL though, I'm very happy with the Paladin and I'm looking forward to finishing my tanking set so I can tank, heal, or DPS in raids. :)

Honors Code said...


"it seems soon we will have to go back and start fighting the old stereotypes of old and this time we will really be in the back as far as abilities."

My wife taught me an expression for when I start worrying about things in the future that could effect us negatively.

"We'll burn that bridge when we get there."

Thorned said...


actually our dps is quite nice. I'm running Ulduar 25 with 3 fellow tanks (2 dks and 1 warrior) and if we are tanking the warrior is normally the one doing the least dmg.

Equipwise we are all more or less alike. And its not like the warrior doesn't know how to play.

The healing in Prot is quite nice too with the talent deep down in the prot tree. I've even been told there have been prot healing specs around the last few months.

@to the hybrid problematic
It is not intended that we can fill all 3 roles without speccing for it. At least not in progressing content.

Galoheart said...

I know the reason I've played my Paladin day in day out for these few years dedicatedly is because I trully like playing my Paladin the way I play him.

It's easy to get caught up in the min max of comparing classes or I have less cooldown that another class. Despite been keenly aware of it all I put that aside and just play the class I enjoy as I've enjoyed it. You try to compensate in other areas where you know you have a slight weekness or find a work around if you can. You do feel every nerf when it hits being aware of it's impact. It can hurt your enjoyment of the game, but I still like the class for the reasons I originally started playing it.