Friday, September 11, 2009

3.2.2 Threat Nerfed

Patch 3.2.2 Notes: Hammer of the Righteous: The damage from this ability is now considered physical instead of Holy. The threat generated by the ability has been increased such that it will continue to do approximately the same threat it did when it was Holy damage.

The key idea to understand about Paladin threat generation is, it's gotta be Holy. Our tank stance is a buff called Righteous Fury. It provides our base damage reduction and increases threat generated by HOLY damage by 90% (soon to be 80% in Patch 3.2.2).

With Hammer of the Righteous (HotR) now being physical, Paladins will generate zero threat from it outside of the base hit.

Today, Hammer of the Righteous hits for 500 Holy damage. Threat generated: 950
PTR before the HotR change: 500 Holy Damage. Threat generated: 900
PTR after the HotR change: 500 Physical Damage. Threat generated 500.

It would actually hit for less than 500 because of Armor, but I ignored that to simplfy the example. Even ignoring armor, HotR produces half the threat is does on live.

There are a couple of different approaches the Developers could tank to make HotR " do approximately the same threat it did when it was Holy damage".

They could simply make it hit harder. It would need to hit about 80% harder than it does now. I find this choice pretty unlikely.

They could add a static threat component to HotR. This is exactly what they had been trying to get away from in Wrath. Balancing around static threat is problematic for the Developers. Threat is great one tier and lousy in the next.

The easiest solution, and the one I personally hope they go with, is adding a percentage threat modifier similar to what they do with Death and Decay. All that would be required is to make this percentage 80% and bingo, your dial back damage while keeping threat close to where it was.

The other interesting question is under what circumstances will HotR "do approximately the same threat it did when it was Holy damage." The issue here is the debuff, Sunder Armor. Will they balance the new HotR assuming a fully Sundered mob?

You would think most 25 mans would have access to the Sunder Armor debuff, but 10 mans may not. There is also the concern that for most classes that can provide the Sunder Armor debuff, it's a DPS loss to provide it.

I believe most everyone can agree that Paladin threat generation is really strong right now and by a good margin. However, let's look at what the Developers have already put on the PTR to reduce Paladin threat.

1) Touched By the Light will now increase spell power based on Strength instead of Stamina.
2) Righteous Fury threat bonus on Holy damage reduced to 80% (was 90%).

Both of these changes will reduce the amount of threat Paladins can generate. The exact amount is not clear but the math geniuses put it at roughly 5 to 7% depending on much you geared for Stamina.

Those changes haven't been fully tested yet, and still the Developers are adding yet another threat nerf. Will they overdo the threat nerf, the same way the overdid the nerf to Death Knights. Color me concerned.

There is another change that will affect the threat generated by some Paladins:

Libram of Obstruction: The buff to block value from this relic is now exclusive with the buff to block value from Libram of the Sacred Shield; it is impossible to have both buffs at once.

Libram of the Sacred Shield: The block value buff from this relic has been increased to match its item level.

Relics: All buffs provided by relics (idols, librams, totems and sigils) now share an exclusive category such that gaining a buff from one of these items will remove all other buffs gained from items in this category.

Basically, people were using macros to switch Librams in combat and get both the Block Value buff from the Libram of Obstruction and the Libram of Sacred Shield at the same time. Doing this let them do some very high threat and could have added to the perception that Paladin threat was 'too high'.

I'm concerned whenever the Developers start making adjustments to my chosen class and especially to it's 51 point talent. I look at the state of my Death Knight friends right now, and that's enough to get anyone a little nervous. (I'm glad they are getting some much needed buffs this patch.)

It's been suggested that the change to HotR was made for PVP reasons. Again, I have to ask what the Developers see as the role for a Protection Paladin in Arena. Our ability to contribute to healing was nerfed by the Touch by the Light change. Now our damage and burst is nerfed through the Hammer of the Righteous change. If the Developers really want to see Prot Paladin Gladiators, what do they think or intend those players to be doing to help their teams reach those high ranknings?


Feist said...

The Sunder debuff is only a DPS loss for those that can provide it relative to somebody else providing the debuff. Relative to not having it at all, Sundering or using EA is a DPS gain for any Rogue or DPS warrior, provided they aren't absolutely skullfuckingly terrible at playing their class.

Anonymous said...

I just recently quit WoW, about 3 weeks ago now, and reading this post is sort of reminds me why I left. I loved my pally, only toon I had, tried rolling an alt here and there but in the end, pally was the only thing. What I hate and still continue to hate even when being gone from the game, is the constant nerf nerf nerf we received.

Blizz just can't leave pallies alone in the nerf department and it gets frustrating to always be on the receiving end of their wrath. What Blizz and the other whiners don't realize is, pallies are not OP, they are simply in most cases, better gamers. Until they realize that, a pally will always be OP to them because their gaming skills are better.

I'm not trying to start a pally is the best player argument, just stating that most major pally players are great gamers and learn the full extent of their class, they have had to with always having a hand and foot tied behind their back.

Blizz is also hitting too many spots at once with their nerf, hitting the threat modifier, the spell power received, and now one of our favorite spells, when will they leave us alone and keep all our damage holy, since you know, we are holy warriors.

I am looking forward to Old Republic and hope the devs learn from Blizz and don't always listen to the whiners who want a constant easy mode because someone can out game them.

Sorry for the long comment, last thought...sorry to see you leave the light Honors, we have lost a great ally in you:P

Teurion of Kael'thas

Honors Code said...

I have a hard time buying the 'Paladins seem OP because they are better players' argument. I've met some amazing players of every tank class. I can tell you flat out, Ellevis is a better player than I am, but right now I can outthreat him on most fights.

I cant' tell you how many Paladin's I've inspected and seen them not taking Deflection or Anticipation. I just kind of shake my head.

Anonymous said...

Like I said, im not trying to start a debate we are the best players, but most good pallies are great players and know their class in and out. Other classes, mages for example, can firebolt their way to high dps and so on. Not dissing on mages either, merely stating that we have quite a lot to manage and the complexity that comes with us. But I hold true that people will always whine about a pally being OP because the good pallies are great players, learning how to use the limitations handed, and still coming out ahead.

The paladins you inspect, i doubt get into high end raiding. Ironically enough, paladinschmaldin wrote an article that sort of gives the same sentiment that i do about it being the individual making it seem the class is OP.

Resonate said...

Seconding Feist. If you only have one person who can provide Sunder/Expose in your raid, it is a personal DPS gain for them to put it on the boss, not to mention the DPS gain for everyone else in the raid.

The only people who argue about putting up Sunder/Expose are people who want to top the DPS meters even if it means that the raid as a whole will be doing 10% less DPS overall (as a number completely pulled out of my ass).

Anonymous said...

I realize this isn't a theorycraft forum but... Back in BC a lot of prot warriors were picking up a dps 1hander, and that was the one piece of pure threat gear in an otherwise solid set of all stam/avoidance/threat gear. Fast forward to today. It seems to my average joe eye, that the strength allocation on tank plate isn't getting much higher as we go up in tiers. Simply put: why not start using the Libram of Valiance in all but the most important raid boss (ie progression kills) tanking situations..?

Wankster of Magtheridon

Feist said...

FWIW, it appears this nerf has been reverted. Ardent Defender has been nerfed, but it's hard to argue that that one isn't appropriate.

kurtosis said...

While this is clearly a nerf and personally do not want it, it is a long time coming. Yes, I have seen well geared prot pallies do only 1400 to 1600 in CoS, about as high as warriors. I do as much as 2,700 depending on the composition. Certain fights in Ulduar with add management like Razorscale where I am tasked to get all adds save the Vyrkul one, I break 3k. Emalon add tanking? I see my name in the top 5 in both overall and dps. Single target output? I average at about 2,500 in hodir in frost resist gear. Threat wise, I back off after a taunt off in ToC beast encounter and I still sometimes pull aggro. Playing a pally is lot easier than playing a warrior from my perspective. A lot easier. I have played a warrior since classic wow and the heroic strike/cleave spam and proc based system is no match for a 12 button 9-6-9 queue that you can practice on dummy.

Do we deserve a scale-back? Yes. Will a lot of pallies get pissed? I'm sure since some prot pallies Ive seen still dont play as well even given the playstyle. I just hope the devs don't overdo these nerfs. Hey, if you think about it, they need to justify the expertise they've been slapping on T9.

Honors Code said...

The nerf has been reversed. I'm working on a post about the AD nerf, but I don't think it's going to be a big deal.

I really appreciate the comments about Sunder. I hadn't realized it was a DPS for the person providing if they were the only one who could provide it.

Blue said...

I try to sunder as often as I can, however fights that have heavy switches (Most fights in ToC) I tend to lose my sunder stack, its very annoying.

Grimadin said...

Since the last patch, when pallies threat hit ludacrous proportions, I have been expecting the nerf bat to take a swing at us. I just get a little apprehensive when they keep swinging repeatedly. Pallies always seem to be in a state of flux from seemling OP, or really OP, to lacking in some way, shape or form. I wish they would only make changes to one aspect of a class at a time, and not do major overhauls like they seem to do. Save that for xpacs if they want to change the fundamentals of a class. I don't need my pally to be the clear overall best at some aspect, and I certainly don't want them to be the worst at something as well. Pvp really shouldn't be the factor that changes PVE raiding. It always seems they try to balance PVP at the expense of raiding.

Lets stop the roller coaster ride, and get us a smooth track in which ever direction they are taking us.

Ardent Defender said...

I'm just reading this post, obviously i must have missed reading this one.

Good to know the nerf was reversed. Sucks Ardent Defender getting nerfed. The Humor in this is i feel i'm getting Nerfed as AD!

Like said recently on my Blog I haven't been playing my Paladin much for a while so haven't kept up with everyday changes as well which seem to take place 'everyday' it seems. Just seems so by the Devs.

I don't mind change or change that improve a class or takes it forward. What concerns me and what I'm getting a bit tired of and I probably have as well is the buff, nerf, buff, buff, nerf, buff, nerf, nerf, buff, nerf, nerf, buff, buff, nerf. You get the idea. Change is good. But are all these changes warranted so constantly and so often?

So they were going to nerf Hammer of the Righteous. Insted they reversed it and decided to Nerf Ardent Defender. What is the logic here. Why were they going to nerf HotR in the first place that it seemed to them as being OP. Only to reverse it and nerf another talent. Did HotR in a matter of hours/days suddenly become Un-OP that they had to reverse it? Did Ardent Defender in that time become OP that they had to even give the Nerf? What i don't understand is these flip flop changes.

We all like to play our favorite classes or the ones we are most attached to for various reasons. At some point a person has to eventual reach that point where they just get tired of it all. Its a roller coster ride from day to day with classes whether be it Paladins or another Class. I'm not a person or advocate for nerfing any class even the ones i don't play. I never ever call my class OP either. Other classes often say we are from their point of view because we often do something they cant.

I don't look at other classes and want what they have. Often I like to think I take a ability that my class have and find a way to use it that makes it look really good. Sometime when you do people say "Damn that Pally looks too good I've never been able to do that on X class" Damn Pally's they are OP. Often a opinion. But are we really?

I have no idea what the Devs are doing or trying to achieve, why as well as the often give one week a buff only to take a nerf the other. At some point some people just get tired of it. Even for a game, you can get tired of the roller coster buffs and nerfs small or large.

Every time our class gets nerfed because of cries or from other class I loose a bit of excitement for playing my own class.