Friday, January 15, 2010

One Hand Love

I'm going to go off on a tangent and talk about 1 handed physical DPS weapons. Tanks use one handed weapons, but those are specialized with Defense. Casters have the option of using a one hander and an offhand, or a staff. I have no idea what the preference is. Let's look at the drops for one handed weapons in Ice Crown.

4 daggers (2 spell power, 2 physical)
2 Fists (2 physical)
2 Axes (2 physical)
3 maces (1 tank, 1 physical, 1 spell power)
3 swords (1 tank, 1 physical, 1 spell power)

There are 2 tanking one handers, and 4 spell power one handers. But there are 8 physical one handers that can drop. I think that's a bit excessive. Who uses physical one handers? Rogues, Enhancement Shamans, and possibly DPS Frost DKs (do those exist?). That doesn't seem to justify dropping four times as many one handers as tanking weapons, or twice as many as spell power weapons.

The Developers constantly tell us they are worried about cluttering up loot tables, yet here we see that some of that clutter is caused by having way too many physical DPS one handers. It's almost like the itemization team hasn't gotten the memo yet that Fury Warriors don't use one handers anymore. Ice Crown itemization is done, so there isn't much point in changing it now. However, I'm not sure the future wings are on WoWhead yet. If those wings are still being itemized I'd like to see less physical DPS one handers dropping.


Hulan said...

For casters, usually a 1H and an off-hand is preferable to a staff, the sum of stats will be better. Most, if not all, the caster classes are limited in which 1H weapons they can use, eg, mages can't use maces.

Danny said...

Honors... Think you are missing a great oppurtunity here.

Pick up a DPS one-hander, slap on SoComm and go clear some ICC trash. Make sure you take a rogue, a hunter and a mage. Go ahead... I'll wait.

How much fun was that???!!! Drove the rogue nuts didn't it? I love the comments in vent about how they should nerf Pallys. It will be a wake up call to the DPS.

I run with a 251 1-handed DPS axe on trash and Heroics. I routinely top the meters in damage done and often DPS if I can catch them sleeping. It has had wonderful effects on our raid DPS because they can't stand being spanked by a Tank.

Oh... Don't forget the Beserker enchant. Nothing like a Red Pally that has popped his wings!

Dorgol said...

I have a feeling the excessive 1h physical weapons is entirely the Rogues fault.

Afterall, a caster doesn't really care if he is using a Sword, Dagger, or Mace. A Dagger Rogue, though, won't touch a sword with a 10-foot pole.

Personally, if given a choice, I won't tank with an Axe. I don't have any real reason (I don't have a racial that prefers a particular weapon), axes just don't feel like tanking weapons to me.

Alex Cresswell said...

I was a bit shocked by the title, thought you were posting on a totally different topic.

What's my main Again? said...

You are missing a few things here... one is the fact that every class except for the physical dps classes are going to be using just one weapon. All of the classes using those 1h weapons need 2 of them and different specs and classes look for different specs. For instance a fast sword is absolutely terrible for a frost DK but can make a good offhand for a combat rogue. Only rogues use daggers and the preferred set up is a slow main hand fast offhand.

Shamans can't use daggers or swords and prefer 2 slow weapons which means that there has to be atleast one or 2 slow one handed (not mainhand) weapons. Dk's also prefer 2 slow weapons. Then you get into itemization... armor pen is amazing for rogues but almost totally useless for a shaman.

Also don't forget that hunters can use 1h weapons. Sure they can use 2h too... but my hunter hasn't gotten a single 2h drop for all of wrath... so my hunter is currently DW axes.

Don't forget too that 1h dps weapons can be a good threat weapon when offtanking or less survival oriented fights especially for prot warriors.

So considering that all the physical classes are dual weild... and can't all use the same weapon type... and prefer different stats and speeds... 4x as many doesn't seem like too much.

Honors Code said...


I shall have to try that.


Blame Rogues. I approve!


It's Friday, I was just having a bit of fun with the title.

@What's My Main,

That's great information. It just seemed like a one hander drops from EVERY SINGLE BOSS last night. Our rogue has a smorgasbord of weapons to choose from, while our Fury Warrior/Blood DK haven't seen a thing.

Argent said...

Note that dual-wield DPS need twice as many weapons as casters or tanks in able to do their job. Additionally, DPS get a much larger boost from the weapon slot compared with armor, so padding the loot tables with an extra weapon or two may be a way to ensure that dual-wield DPS get at least a new main-hand weapon sooner, rather than later.

Non-paladin casters, as Hulan noted, have access to 2-hand options as well (staves and such) in addition to 1-hand weapons. (There are 3 caster staves in ICC)

So, things break down as:

caster - 7 (4 1H, 3 2H)
1H phys dps - 7
2H phys dps - 4
tanking - 2

For the following breakdown of specs:

caster - 14 specs, 5 healer specs
1H phys dps - 5 specs + 3 specs hunter
2H phys dps - 6 specs + 3 specs hunter, includes 3 tank specs
tanking - 2 specs + dw DK tanks

If you assume that hunters may dual-wield instead of taking 2H weapons, the numbers seem a bit closer, although I'd probably move one of the 1H dps weapons to 2H, since fury warriors will end up wanting two 2H weapons. I might also hope to add another 1H caster weapon, particularly since paladin healers can't use the 2H weapons.

Kaziel said...

I agree with "What's my main again?"'s post almost 99%. While you say there are 3 classes (Enhance Shamans, Frost DKs, and Rogues) there really five (or six depending on your PoV), so to speak. One must remember that different specs call for different weapons.

Frost DKs are the probably the farthest stretch for this, but a Frost DK with dual spec, one DPS and one tank, and they were using DPS weapons for tanking (a completely viable approach), they would need 4 different weapons in order to quickly change specs. Otherwise they'd have to waste valuable time going back to Acherus to change their Runes. Note: Frost DW is so much better than Frost 2H that you're gimping yourself badly by going with a 2H approach. At this point, if someone says "Frost DK", it's 99% sure they are talking about DWing.

As far as Rogues go, each spec calls for a different setup. Assassination rogues use Mutilate which calls for Daggers, but uses both of them, meaning they would want two "slow" dagger (1.8 speed is as slow as a dagger gets...). Meanwhile, a Subtly Rogue would want a slow dagger in the main hand for Backstabs and Assassinates, but since that only uses the MH weapon, the OH would be(I believe) a fast dagger to aim for more poison procs (does it even work this way anymore?). Finally there are combat rogues who want big slow non-dagger weapons. Taking the appropriate points in their weapon of choice they get a slow MH sword, fist weapon, mace or axe to make strong Sinister Strikes with, meanwhile their OH weapon is fast for the same reason as an Subtlety Rogue wants a fast OH dagger: More Poison applications.

Enhance Shamans are in a similar boat as Frost DKs or Assassination Rogues in that they have an attack which uses both weapons (Stormstrike), thus they want to slow weapons, but they are much more limited than the other DWing classes in that the weapons that their only viable options are slow fist weapons, axes and maces.


PS: The 1% that I disagree with "What's my main again?" about is an oversight on his part that's completely understandable. Shamans can use Daggers. Many a Resto or Elemental Shaman will use a caster dagger as their weapon of choice. The reason that it probably slipped his mind is that Enhance Shaman never use Daggers because they are 1.8 speed at slowest, meanwhile instead they could be using weapons that are 2.6 or 2.7 in both hands and do so much better.

Ofn said...

Honors... what are you including when you say that 2 physical DPS daggers are available as drops in ICC? Is there one in ICC 25 normal? Because there's only one in ICC 10 and it drops off Professor Putricide.

I agree certain classes on our team have been getting shafted with regard to loot, and I know Ofn has been very lucky.

But, as others have noted, the rogue class requires two weapons, with specific needs for each hand. Heck, if we want 2 different specs, we actually need *4* weapons. We must have a variety to choose from!

Hmm... I guess it *is* rogues' fault! LOL.

What's my main Again? said...

Yeah by can't I was talking about enhancement shamans because you won't ever find a dagger slower then 2.0. I should have been more clear.

Also Mutilate rogues have changed a bit with 3.3 to where they want the slow main hand and fast offhand for the poison procs. With the way that deadly poison now works you want as fast of a weapon as possible to proc instant poison on the main hand. So every rogue now wants a slow main hand and fast offhand.

Nuff said...

Seriously? All the physical 1h users dual wield...there must be twice as many to accomodate dual wielders.

Ngita said...

I am with honor here. While their are other clases that could use 1 handers mostly its just rogues. I see lots of replies saying x could use, so its OK.

But the reality is we go into icc25 for the 6th time, We have 2 rogues and a enhance shaman and a resto that sometimes goes dps as enhance. In one run we get 3 physical dps 1 handers, nobody needs them everybody that might need them allready has dual 264. Its true the hunters could use them but they share a class of weapons with just the druids and desperate 2 hand melee classes. In the meantime I have to hope that somewhere in ICC25 their is a decent caster mace. A weapon I share with 2 priests, 2 druids,3 shaman and another Holy Paladin.

Elleiras said...

@Ngita - As we remind each other constantly in my guild, "random loot is random." :)

It's easy as a caster or tank to look at everything that isn't a spellpower or tanking weapon and groan "DPS!" but -- as other commenters have explained -- not all DPS weapons are appropriate for all DPS classes and specs. My enhancement shaman isn't interested in those fast one-hand daggers, and while she will take a slow axe itemized with ArP if no one else can use it, it isn't ideal and will be replaced as soon as its non-ArP counterpart drops.

The real issue is driven by itemization, and Blizzard realizes that: hence the upcoming simplification of stats in Cataclysm.

Tegoelf said...

tego gonna get himself a 1H dps weapon for trash/heroic tanking =) make the dps I run with even more annoyed. also, anyone else here think that a dual wielding paladin would be cool (though completely OP with 2 top end healing maces or something like that)

Ardent Defender said...

Someone above said Shaman cant use Daggers. Well Shaman do indeed use Daggers....... Elemental/Resto Shaman use spell caster dagger blade. I know since my Elemental Spec Shaman has a caster Dagger blade.